Here is a brief video explaining the NT picture of the relationship between the OT Law and what Jesus accomplished.
(Below is the bottom line and some recommended resources)
- Jesus did not come to “annul” or “overturn” the OT Law, He came to “completely fulfill it unto its intended end” (Matt 5:17)
- In His death on the cross, Jesus makes our relationship to the law the same as the binding nature of a widow to her departed husband. (Eph 2:15)
- The Old Covenant was made “obsolete” by the New Covenant in that it is no longer useful for picturing God’s eternal law (His character) since that function was more fully expressed in His Son. (Heb 8:13)
There is much more that can be said about this topic, I would point you to these resources (below). Please do interact with questions/comments in the “comments” section below. I hope to post another video in a week or two.
Recommended Resources:
“The End of the Law: Mosaic Covenant in Pauline Theology” by: Jason C. Meyer
“Five Views on Law and Gospel” in Zondervan’s “Counterpoints” series.
Great video, Pastor John. A much needed discussion to have! Looking forward to hearing more.
thank you for taking the time to put this info together. very helpful. Much needed. It seems that there are a few groups that are coming out with odd views of the Christian’s relation to the Law.
Hey, thanks Adam. Nice of you to say! I’ve been doing some Adult SS training you might find useful also. see here: http://www.fbmaryville.blogspot.com/p/teacher-training.html and it’s also in posts on this blog https://johnmarkharris.net usually on Thursdays
Mucho thanks, pass it along to those who need it!
And thanks for the ride to lunch today.
Caught it and loved it as well. Thanks for providing the notes.
Great clarification on word definitions & explaining the lixicon. Thanks.
What a great, insightful, loving explanation!! Thank you, Pastor John!!
Thanks Val! It’s definitely a balancing act to be both clear and thorough.
Thank you very much! It is a struggle to balance “truth” with “love” but also something we’re called to do…
Excellent explanation! Thank you.
No problem, I hope it helps. I always enjoy revisiting issues and finding better ways to explain things. Learn something new every time.
Thanks John.
Very well done Pastor John
Thanks for sharing the link earlier today. Enjoyed the presentation immensely! I’ll be looking forward to further study using your recommended resources.
Love this! To take Paul’s Galatians illustration further, the Law is “kata-ergo” in relationship to any Christian because it’s like a school: we’ve been declared graduates in Yeshua! We don’t have to eat at the cafeteria, follow the class schedule, or turn in any homework. We’re free! So even though the school still exists, and all the lessons are still valid, we are not subject to what taught us (ignoring the fact that the Law wasn’t given to gentiles anyways)
Great insight. I thought of some abandoned school buildings that I’ve seen at Chernobyl. We are free indeed!
That’s great! I really like Meyer’s book. He does a very good job of the history of research on the topic, though he is pretty academic, it’s worth getting through (but it might take longer than your average book – plan in the “think time”)
Thank you! I appreciate the feedback.
You’re most welcome! Hope the Gospel Project is going well… This week, Bible Studies for Life will be covering Matthew 5:17 so pray that many will listen.
Hello there friends. Zach (New2Torah) posted a response to this video.
If you’d like to watch it, you can here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-09bT8-Dhok
Please do watch both videos and you’ll find that he either misrepresents my views on purpose, or perhaps doesn’t quite understand what I was saying.
I don’t separate the “ceremonial law” from the “civil law” or anything else. I believe the law is the law, it cannot be separated. He starts his video admitting that there are parts of the law he can’t do and he relies on Jesus for those.
In my view, I rely on Jesus for it all. I’m not the one separating the law with that regard.
The words for “abolishing” and “abolish” in Eph. and Matt. are DIFFERENT WORDS in Greek. That was my point in bringing them up. Zach presents them as though I was saying they meant the same thing, but that’s the opposite of my point. I was kinda shocked by that (though by now, I should not surprised)
I really think my video on this page explains it well. I definitely don’t have everything figured out, but I do believe my view is closer to the biblical picture.
I love the conversation, keep it going in the comments here… BLESSINGS to all (especially Zach and his followers).
Another one preaching Jesus destroyed/annul the law & says ya arn’t – shakes head
Paul went to the temple to make sacrifices in Acts 21 to prove he still kept the law because of teachers like you twisting it back to front!!!
If you see the cops stopped at a red light & you drive strait through will they give you a ticket for running the red light when you tell them they fulfilled the law for you? Yes because you have to too! We are told to repent of sin so what is sin?
1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
So to repent of sin means to keep the law or else you trample Jesus blood underfoot & keep sinning
1 John 5:2-3 KJV By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
On one hand you say that the OT law was not abolished. But then you said that Jesus’ death abolished some of the laws. I’m a little confused by your meaning. Please read this article on exactly ‘what was nailed to the cross.’ http://boldlyproclaimingchrist.wordpress.com/2012/02/18/what-was-nailed-to-the-cross/
Hello Becca, thanks for your comment. Actually, if you will watch the video a bit more closely, I think I explained clearly the law was not destroyed or annulled it came to it’s intended goal in Jesus.
As for Acts 21. This is a fantastic example for people to look at.
You seem to be accusing me of saying Paul didn’t keep the ritual purity laws or that he told Jews not to do it.
This is EXACTLY the charge that James tells Paul was levied against him. So, Paul sponsored 4 young Jewish men who were taking what seems to be a Nazarite vow, and he even joins them.
Paul kept the OT Law, as far as I can tell, until his dying day.
I don’t teach that he didn’t.
The question is not “did Paul continue to keep the law” the question is “why?”
Paul tells us his “why?” in 1Cor 9:20: “To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.”
This is why he had Timothy circumcised, but Titus was not. The requirements of the OT law are not obligations on anyone.
Paul did not forbid Jews from keeping OT law practices, that was the charge against him. What is extremely telling, is that is your charge against me.
In other words.
Paul’s opponents, and my opponents (in this case, you) are accusing us of the same thing!!! WOW, that could not be more encouraging to me that I am correct about Paul’s teaching in Romans 14.
Jews are perfectly free to continue in their OT traditions, in fact, Paul thought it was a good idea, not because he was obliged, but so he could continue to go to synagogues, not simply for personal worship, but to convert the Jews.
What Paul objects to, are people who would compel Gentiles to keep the OT law. These are the People Paul says he wishes would “emasculate themselves” (Gal 5).
Blessings to you, and thank you for illustrating that Paul and I are on the same side 🙂
I really don’t think allegories are the best way to go about Biblical Studies. Jesus did a whole lot more than simply pay a traffic fine.
As to your 1John 3:4, unfortunately, I believe you are reading into the Bible what you hope to find, rather than reading it for what it actually says.
This is the verse that HRM people quote me, without exception, when I ask them to show me that breaking OT laws is sin in the New Covenant.
Certainly, every sin is breaking God’s eternal law, but not all the laws listed in the Levitical system are eternal. Take, for example the prohibition of marrying a close relative in Lev. 18. This is obviously not an eternal law in that God commanded Adam and his family, as well as Noah and his family, to do just that.
So, are you aware of a verse that says breaking any Levitical law is always sin? Because, and perhaps you are not aware of this, 1 John 3:4 does not say that.
I feel like that line in the “Princes Bride” – “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means”
Most HRM people desperately want to read this verse backwards, which you seem to be doing.
Absolutely, any sin would be breaking God’s law. However, that is all this verse says. It does not say that breaking any law is sin.
This is a logical fallacy. Just like saying “all squares are rectangles” is true, but that does not mean all rectangles are squares. All sins are the breaking of God’s law, but breaking any part of the OT law is not necessarily sin. (at least, not according to that verse).
I am open to the possibility that there is a verse in the NT that would tell me that breaking any law would be sin, however, I would simply point out, that would be God’s eternal law, not temporary laws like the example I just gave, or circumcision, or the Sabbath (which was not observed until Moses) etc.
God’s law, to love one another, is not burdensome in Christ. Without Christ it’s impossible. That’s why Jesus’ death was so monumental.
The law (including it’s punishment/consequences) was “paid in full” on the cross. There is no fine left to pay, there is nothing left to fulfill, if in Christ.
Blessings!
I understand your confusion, you need to watch the video a bit more closely. One of the main points is that the word translated “abolish” in Matthew and the word translated “abolishing” in Ephesians are NOT THE SAME WORD in Greek.
I’d rather not promote other people’s stuff that doesn’t address what this post is about.
Torah Is Holy… Right?
by Mishkan David — Categories: Bible, Character, Messianic, Religion, Romans 7 — Tags: Dead to Sin, Law, Romans 7, Torah — 2 Comments
Romans 7 and the Role of Torah
It is often said that the Torah is an unrealistic document, making
demands upon us that are completely impossible. Thus, we should view it
as a harsh taskmaster whose only intention is to break us so that we
will see how good the freedom of grace is. The whole purpose of “the
Law” is merely to “show us our sin”, and bring us to our knees before
Yeshua.
Have you ever heard this sort of teaching? It is pretty pervasive in
Christian thought. It even came up in a discussion recently on the Mishkan David Discussion Forums. So, it seemed like a good time to share a response to such thinking, coming from a Messianic Perspective.
There is a tendency to misunderstand Romans 7. For some reason, we
want to read this chapter as though Sha’ul is setting up the Torah as an
adversary against us, and that he is giving us “a way out” from under
the terrible bondage of “the Law”. Part of the reason we think this way
is that we start reading this passage at 7:1 instead of where it really
starts–in 6:1. Once again, the dreaded misplaced chapter break does its
job in destroying the context for us. Chapter 7 is a continuation of
Chapter 6, which discusses our choice to serve either sin or
righteousness. As followers of Yeshua, we are enabled to serve Hashem
according to his instruction, rather than follow the rule of sin.
Just to save time and space here, let’s take a look at the passage,
starting with 6:20 (I really encourage you to read all of chapters 6
through 8 together in one sitting).
For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard
to righteousness. What fruit did you have then in the things of which
you are now ashamed? For the end of those things [is] death.
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of
God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For
the wages of sin [is] death, but the gift of God [is] eternal life in
Christ Jesus our Lord.
Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
(Romans 6:20-7:1, NKJV)
In order to properly understand chapters 6 and 7, we need to take a
peek into chapter 8. That will give us some definitions that are
important for us in the two chapters we are reviewing. You see, in
Sha’ul’s thinking, there are three “laws” in play, not the two we
usually hear about. The logic of chapters 6 and 7 depend upon us
understanding these three laws, which are explicitly defined in chapter
8:
The law of sin and death (8:2, 5-8)
The law of life and spirit (8:2, 4, 9-12)
The Torah, which instructs us on which is which (8:4)
This helps us to understand the significance of chapter 7—especially
the allegory of the wife who dies to her husband. This analogy is often
given an interpretation that says, “We have died to the Law of God, and
now we can be married to Christ”. But that completely misses the point
of the comparison!
Romans 7:2,3 is merely an illustration of the fact that, once we make
our choice of a spouse, we are bound to it. In general principle, a
woman remains with her husband as a family unit until death. If she
steps out on him while he still lives, then she has adulterated the
marriage. That principle is found in the Torah. It neither adds to, nor
detracts from, the Torah.
For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to
[her] husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is
released from the law of [her] husband. So then if, while [her] husband
lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if
her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no
adulteress, though she has married another man.
(Romans 7:2,3, NKJV)
Having given the illustration of the permanence of relationships,
Sha’ul comes back to his idea (from the previous chapter) of changing
our allegiance from sin to righteousness.
Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the
law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another–to
Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
(Romans 7:4, NKJV)
This hearkens back to Romans 6:3-6, where Sha’ul has already stated
the principle that our mikveh symbolized the death of our old ways, and
the newness of life that comes with being in Messiah. Once we used to be
“in covenant” with death and sin. But in taking the step of giving our
lives over to Yeshua—the sinless, deathless one—we have changed our
allegiance. Not through our own literal death, but through
identification with his death.
For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which
were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to
death. But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what
we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit
and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
(Romans 7:5,6 NKJV)
Prior to being part of the Messianic community, we were aligned with
only our own selfish interests. We were made aware that we were acting
selfishly when we read the Torah. As I said above, there are three
laws described in these chapters, not the two we are usually taught.
The Torah is the rule that tells us what behavior is sinful, and what
behavior is righteous. Prior to joining to the Body of Yeshua, most of
us didn’t care what the Torah had to say. It was merely an obstruction,
preventing us from getting our own way. We were “in covenant” with our
own personal ambitions. We were held in bondage to the sinful attitudes
that Sha’ul calls “the flesh”. It was the self-rule that caused us to
violate Torah in order to pursue our own purposes.
Now we have “died to what we were held by”. This is not the death of
the Torah, but the death of sin–of us! This is what allows us to serve
the Torah in righteousness. Now, we understand Torah for what it really
is–a document of life and good, rather than a bunch of letters on a
page, serving only to slow us down as we “do our own thing”.
What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? Certainly not!
(Romans 7:7, NKJV)
Now, Sha’ul summarizes his two-chapter discussion, and basically restates what we have been saying.
It sometimes seems like nobody ever reads these three chapters as a
unit. And if they do, they seem to skip over 7:12. Could it be that we
do this because the anti-Torah teaching in Christianity is so pervasive
that we have a hard time assimilating the idea that the Torah is a Good
Thing? How do we read this discussion of serving Hashem rather than
ourselves, and come away with the idea that Hashem’s own Torah is the
problem that must be remedied?
On the contrary, I would not have known sin except
through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law
had said, “You shall not covet.”
(Romans 7:7, NKJV)
So, the Torah is righteous and good because it tells us the
definition of righteousness. Not so Hashem can beat us over the head
with it, but to instruct us regarding what things are righteous, and
what things are sin. Its purpose is to provide “instruction in
righteousness”, as Sha’ul wrote to his disciple in Second Timothy 3:16.
But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced
in me all [manner of evil] desire. For apart from the law sin [was]
dead. I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came,
sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which [was] to [bring]
life, I found to [bring] death. For sin, taking occasion by the
commandment, deceived me, and by it killed [me].
(Romans 7:8-11, NKJV)
There’s that “law of sin and death” thing again. It is us that
needs to die, not the Torah. We need an ego exchange, making us want to
serve Hashem rather than ourselves. Until we have made the choice to
pursue the things of Adonai, we will always find ourselves frustrated
and defeated, for the Torah tells us that Adonai desires righteousness
in our lives.
Think of this in terms of how we raise children. When a child is an
infant, we have zero expectations of him. He lays there, gurgling,
eating, and pooping. That’s normal. There is no volition, and so we
cannot hold him to any rules. But, as that child matures, we expect him
to learn to walk, control his bowels, “use his words” to express
himself, etc. In essence, we introduce regulation into his life, and
regulations imply an ability to violate the rules.
Likewise, prior to learning the Torah, we are able to exist quite
nicely on our own. We eat what we like, live where we like, engage in
whatever activity we like. There is no one who can rain on our parade.
We are independent of all who would “put us under bondage”.
But once we are made aware of the Torah, something kicks in, making
us want to violate it. Edgar Allen Poe referred to this something as
“the spirit of perversity”. It may never occur to us to commit a certain
sin. But then we read in the Torah that a behavior is prohibited. All
of a sudden, we find ourselves dwelling on that act. What would it be
like to do it? Could we do it without being observed? Could we gain
anything substantial through that behavior? Our own inclination towards
personal gain causes us to challenge the rule. This is the essence of
sin–”I will be like god”.
Therefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.
(Romans 7:12, NKJV)
So, the Torah is good. And when we choose to serve righteousness, we
are good. But we have to approach the Torah with a submissive attitude,
recognizing that our own nature is programmed for self-will and personal
gain–things contrary to the Torah, which tells us to pursue the good of
others.
It is easy to misunderstand Romans 6 and 7 because most of us
received our first lessons in following Yeshua from people who had an
anti-Torah mindset. That causes us to miss the flow of the discussion,
and miss out on Sha’ul’s real point in this chapter—that Yeshua allows
us to “die to self”, and instead live as a child of Hashem, according to
the Torah.
It is a glorious thing to be welcomed into the Messianic Body of
Yeshua, where we can live as citizens of the King, according to his
Constitution. If you aren’t already part of the Messianic community, we
invite you to join us at the Mishkan, where you can learn what it means to serve the Father in truth and righteousness.
Hi there, this post isn’t on Romans 7.
But I hope you feel better having preached your message to my audience 🙂
Blessings to you.
Shalom! John M. Harris!
Thank You for your words,
None of us have all the answers,
But when we are Fully in Christ which is a progressive process,
By the progressive revelations given by God’s Holy Spirit,
Through The Word & The Words & Spirit & Prayer,
Romans, Chapters 6, 7, 8, become easier to understand.
Again I say progressively, we are all learning including you.
I just encourage you to mention that all revelation of any truths,
Are due to Our Father’s Holy Spirit whom He Lovingly Freely gave us,
That we may know that His Holy Spirit teaches us all things progressivly The Truth.
And St. Paul was also teaching by the unction of Ruach HaQadosh/The Holy Spirit,
With The Only Holy Scriptures that they had at the time he was teaching,
And The Scriptures that he had were The Torah (The Law) which are,
The instructions, teachings and directions of YHWH/God,
And The Prophets, and The Writings.
The so called N.T. which is The Apostolic Holy Scriptures,
Were not in its entirety until about the latter part of the second century.
But the fact is it was spoken by the inspiration of YHWH/God.
Not by the wisdom of man –
The point is we can know nothing of truth without His Spirit ,
And you did say that it is all from Jesus(or similar words.
Just to remind you our views cannot say anything good,
Unless we receive the truth from the source.
The source is Avenu/Our Father,
Through His Son, By His Holy Spirit.
The mystery of “Christ In You”
That is the manifestation of Christ in us:
Then we shall know all things because the utterance,
Of The Spirit of The Life of Ye’Shua HaMashiach shall be in us,
And manifesting from us, and speaking through us:
2Co 4:10
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
2Co 4:11
For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
2Co 4:12
So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
Are We Free from his teaching/torah/law? or are we free from sin? The Torah is holy and true. There are some things that are temporary instructions. For example, the instructions on the tabernacle were replaced once the temple was constructed and there was no more Tabernacle. I imagine the same is true because of Yeshua’s sacrifice in relation to temple services. However, to say that children of God do not need his instructions anymore is foolish. It is true that nobody has been able to keep the torah perfectly, we have all sinned (by the way not obeying God is sin, and that means torah). However we have been given grace to take away our guilt, shame, fear, condemnation, and everything else that goes along with sin. The reason for this is so that we can approach God’s instructions from the proper perspective. This is the difference in the new covenant…now the Law is to be within us (Jeremiah 31:31 / Hebrews 8:10). It has nothing to do with forsaking his commands, but he gives us grace for when we mess up, so that we can try to improve. We can approach torah from two perspectives…..a checklist of rules…..or by letting his teaching permeate our heart over time. Think of it this way. If you have children you know that they do not get up every morning and go through a checklist of everything you have taught them to make sure they obey you. Those things are hidden deep within their hearts and they live in the right way because you have taught them little by little, and discipline them when they need it, and reward/bless them when they do good. YHWH’s TEACHING IS PERFECT YET WE ARE NOT. I pray that we can learn his teachings from a pure heart just as we teach our children.
I’m not aware that I said we don’t need his instruction. The law is good, I’m pretty sure I said it reflects his character. Didn’t I say that?
You said breaking the first five books of the OT is sin, is there a NT verse that says that? Could you point me to it?
I believe that sin is that which breaks God’s law, but certainly not that everything in the first 5 books is binding in us today, as you said, temporary “until” Jesus came and completed his work.
So, a simple verse from the NT telling me breaking the first 5 books is sin would be helpful if you can.
You are right, we’re all still learning. Praise God for the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth!
Interesting discussion John Mark. I just have a couple of questions regarding this particular portion because I think that Lawrence brings up an interesting point. The Torah was called and understood by the Jews to be “the way” “the truth” and “the Life” and then Jesus also equates himself as being the same~ way, truth, and the life and he goes on to further say that no one comes to the Father except by me in this scripture thus equating himself with Torah. Are you saying that the completed work of Jesus meant an end of the Torah? The first groups of believers in Jesus were Jewish–if he was preaching an end to the Torah he would have been a false Messiah to his people. At this time there were only Jews and Pagans. So you are saying that the Jews who believed in the Messiah at this time were free to walk without the Torah? This is not logical to me. The Torah was the precepts for living spoken from the foundation of the world by Messiah himself if you believe he is the word or breath of God. So why would he nullify or end that which he gave? It doesn’t make sense to me. What other blueprint for living were the Jewish followers in the Messiah supposed to follow? Messiah taught Torah. When the Messiah was brought to the pagans they were set free from child sacrifice, fornication, temple prostitution, etc… How did they know what sin was? How did they know they needed to repent? How did they know they were to believe in only one God? What precepts were they to follow? What days were they to keep holy. Why would the pagans even want to embrace a Jewish Messiah? Why would they see the need? When you use Paul as an example of being all things to all groups are you saying he became as a pagan? There was a lot to teach pagans converting to….messianic Judaism (belief in the Jewish Messiah)— so what precepts were they following? How did they show the pagans that temple prostitution was sin? How did they show that child sacrifice was sin? How did they teach the pagans what was sin? I have a lot of questions and your video while very interesting doesn’t satisfy them. Of course the Torah’s intended goal is Messiah, he showed us how to hit the mark and walk it out perfectly crushing Satan under his feet in his walk of perfection and perfect atonement on our behalf. Now we have the help of the Holy Spirit to give us power to overcome sin and walk out the Torah blamelessly like our Messiah.
I believe Jesus was the intended end of the law based on Matthew 5 (as I clearly teach in this post, if you’ve not watched it).
All those not in Christ are “under the law” but YES Jesus changed everything.
He did not nullify the law, but it is obsolete for those in Christ (again, I refer you to my video in this post).
Paul was not under the Law, but lives as such to reach his countrymen. He tells us as such.
There are not different rules for Jew and Gentile, we are one NEW man in Christ, not simply an expansion of the old man by adding Gentiles. It is ONLY by belief in Jesus that the law is made obsolete, but certainly not nullified for those still under it (I.e. not in Christ).
Blessings (I recommend watching the video, or watching more closely).
You have to expect that people have opinions and they will differ from yours from time to time. You should not take offense. After all, they love the Word of Yahweh just like you do and if they perceive that you’re saying something contrary to the Word, naturally they’re going to oppose you. And when they do, simply address them and clarify your position with kindness. Also, that link you deleted that was “against something you didn’t say”….if you were saying that the law was not abolished, then that link actually supports what you said and may have clarified some things for your readers.
By saying “if you say the law wasn’t abolished” betrays that you’re not paying attention, or simply didn’t watch the video. I say it wasn’t. This is a dialogue, please interact with what I say. I don’t pay for this forum to allow others to promote their views. Blessings.
I did watch the video and I did pay attention. The problem is that you contradicted yourself, as my first comment states. I said “if you say the law wasn’t abolished” because that is the VERY thing that caused the confusion in the first place because the statement at the end of the video was contradictory. Can you understand what I’m saying to you?
And the contradictory statement?
Marker 15:18 “Through Jesus’ death, the Old Testament law is no longer binding on us. It has been made obsolete. It has worn out its usefulness because the New Covenant is here…”
Hi Carol. I’m just quoting scripture there.
I made this 17+ min. video clearly explaining the difference between “abolish” and “fulfill” and if, at this point, you still do not understand, I don’t believe I will be able to help you. Since you couldn’t produce a contradiction, I’ll simply have to conclude you don’t understand. That breaks my heart, but that’s the way it goes sometimes.
Blessings.
“Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I
have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah — not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!
Jesus clearly states that until heaven and earth pass away not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah—heaven and earth are still here, everything that must happen has not happened–we don’t have Messiah reigning on high in Jerusalem. The covenants that God established with his chosen people~~Israel are forever. The new covenant spoken of in Jeremiah is to the Jewish people and is fulfilled in the arrival of their Messiah. You really need to understand the Tanakh and what it says about covenants and about what the role of Messiah was to the Jewish people. A Messiah or Messiah figure always came to point the people back to Torah. The Messiah kept Torah, wore teffilim, phylacteries, tallit, kept kasrut and was a Jew to his very core. Again I ask you–what was the expected behavior of the pagans–gentiles who were coming to believe in the Messiah based upon? There was no NT writings, all teaching was based on the Tanakh–they heard the teaching in the synagogues or ecclesia home gatherings–churches weren’t yet invented. John Mark I am truly trying to understand your position and how you have come to it but like Carol in the above post I don’t see how you can possibly glean your position from this portion of scripture.
As for Paul why did he keep the law–because he was Jewish and the Messiah did as well. 1 Corinthians 9
For although I am a free man, not bound to do anyone’s bidding, I have made myself a slave to all in order to win as many people as possible. 20 That is, with Jews, what I did was put myself in the position of a Jew, in order to win Jews. With people in subjection to a legalistic perversion of the Torah, I put myself in the position of someone under such legalism, in order to win those under this legalism, even though I myself am not in subjection to a legalistic perversion of the Torah. 21 With those who live outside the framework of Torah, I put myself in the position of someone outside the Torah in order to win those outside the Torah — although I myself am not outside the framework of God’s Torah but within the framework of Torah as upheld by the Messiah. 22 With the “weak” I became “weak,” in order to win the “weak.” With all kinds of people I have become all kinds of things, so that in all kinds of circumstances I might save at least some of them. Complete Jewish Bible
Legalism is the issue here not the Torah. Legalism = trying to earn salvation through works. Torah is commandments not works of righteousness. Jews before and during the days of Messiah knew that one couldn’t earn salvation. they relied on teshuva (repentance). Legalism was a big issue in Jesus’ day because of a corrupt leadership but that didn’t mean Torah was legalistic. I have found that studying the Torah with a good Torah teacher opens one’s eyes to the magnificence of the New Covenant and gives greater understanding to the Jewish Messiah.
Shalom! John M Harris.
Thank You! Blessings to you Bro!
If you reply to someone,
It is best if you mention who you are replying to.
This is only encouragement and you say
“But I hope you feel better having preached your message to my audience :-)”
That appears as a sarcastic remark which is not good example for a “Pastor”?
I thank Avenu/Our Father that I can ignore such attitudes,
And pray for those that may use sarcasm.
I Pray YHWH Blesses You! Man!
We are all being taught of YHWH in so many ways.
If you want to del;ete my comments you may,
I’m just encouraging you …
I need say no more.
I do use sarcasm quite a bit. I don’t always do it well, but I’m following Jesus’ example when people are combative and inflexible 🙂
Blessings.
Like I said I need say no more …
You just admitted your fault … you did it again …
Maybe you do not realize it is not following Ye’shua,
Nevermind if you think so I will agree to disagree,
I tried to be respectful but you are being disrespectful,
By using your worldly knowledge rather than YHWH’S Holy Spirit.
By doing something that is not a good witness.
I cannot speak anymore with you because you think incorrectly,
And have not received my encouragement.
I think you may be used to being praised.
Sorry if I have offended you, if not,
I thank YHWH!
Baruch HaShem!
Blessings.:-)))
Well, if “Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” (Matt 19:24) isn’t sarcasm. Then anyone living in America is in trouble while 2/3+ of the world lives on <$1-2 a day.
I believe Jesus had a sense of humor and used sarcasm as a rebuke on more than one occasion.
I'll miss you, blessings.
Alagories, parables. Stories certainly do help bring home a point.
Only if the allegory is about the point 🙂